Specials

Ian Fisher’s article in the New York Times is still fueling a very interesting debate on the “depression” of the Italians. Another NYT journalist, Patrick J. Lyons, due to the controversies aroused, interviewed the correspondent from Italy on December 21. Fisher said to his colleague: “I really didn’t write anything more than what Italians themselves say or what is in the Italian media every day. But it has rarely been put together in one comprehensive story — and I think that stung more coming from a foreigner, especially from a newspaper like the Times. Italians – concluded Fisher – care very much about what outsiders think, maybe particularly Americans.

I think, too, that whatever the criticism the piece draws, it hit at something real.”

On the New York Times’s website the interview with Fisher is followed by a series of comments by the readers who express their opinion on his article and on the “depression” of Italians. It is interesting to notice that the readers contributing to this blog are not only Americans or Italians: there are also Italian Americans as well as people from many parts of the world.

Ridagana paints a portrait of Italians that is really discouraging: “My experience right now working as the only American with a group of Italians in a foreign country is very depressing. Although they are part of a United Europe in their own spirit they are not. Their English is bad, they only read Italian papers and magazines, only watch Italian TV, only eat Italian food, etc. My sense is that their education needs to be revamped, starting with solid English and a much broader perspective of a United Europe, worldwide issues, etc. They are for sure cutting themselves off from global society, which will cost them jobs, money, respect. Their only claim to fame is Rome because of the Pope and the Church, which would be the same as the US being famous because of the UN in New York. Italy is shrinking for sure and they know it. Depressing – you bet.”

Such statements are sure to cause reactions. Among the replies is J Davids’ who, while admitting Italy’s malaise, says: “To look down on Italians because they do not speak English, or that they only read Italian newspapers (eat Italian food, etc.) is the pot calling the kettle black and does not help the discussion. Americans tend to be just as bad when they travel abroad. Also, why not study French or German or Mandarin? English is not the only game in town. We should look at ourselves and get our own house in order before we start criticizing others for not speaking English or having too much graffiti.”

Mr. Fisher’s article also spurred reflections about the situation outside of Italy’s borders, trying to find opportunities to attack the United States, and in particular the Bush administration.
Terry Hughes is an American who goes to Italy fairly often, “and not just Rome-Florence-Venice”, he clarifies. He communicates constantly with lots of Italian friends, many of whom say the same things as Mr. Fisher did in the article, “only with more bitterness and anger than he expressed.” Terry Hughes ends with a statement needing no comments: “Of course, there’s plenty of malaise going around these days, and we’ve got our share. At least the Italians didn’t create a hideous worldwide mess.”

Richard Turner’s intervention returns to Italy where he did not have any positive experiences: “My partner and I have visited Italy 7 times in the last 9 years. We won’t be going back soon. Last year, we detected a palpable malaise, especially in the cities, among the populace. Graffiti was ubiquitous. Service was lousy. If you needed help from a bank, from your rental agency, from anyone with an official capacity, forget it. In fact, we came up with an expression during the trip: ‘In Italy, the answer is no.’ With the exception of a few wonderful individuals, Italians would NOT go out of their way to assist you. And we speak the language. Ian Fisher’s trenchant article put into words exactly what we had a hard time expressing, and made us realize it wasn’t just us. My hope is that after all the histrionics and media hype has faded, the people of that amazing country will snap out of it and realize that they (like everyone else) have some serious issues to address, and the sooner they start taking them head on, the better. It’s in their hands.”

Michael focuses on the Italian reaction to “American provincialism”: “Before we invaded Iraq in 2003, we were so stung by French criticism of our government that we renamed French fries into ‘Freedom fries’, poured our bottles of Bordeaux into the streets, and called the French ‘traitors’ and ‘weasels’. (Fortunately, nobody thought of returning the Statue of Liberty to France.) If it were the Italians who had invaded Iraq and we Americans had criticized them for doing it, I do not believe that our Italian friends would have reacted by dumping tractor-loads of Coca-Colas and iPods into the Tiber while accusing us of siding with terrorists. Whatever their country’s problems are, Italians can handle criticism – albeit an unwarranted assault on their ‘bella figura’ – from America’s newspaper of record, and still be our friends.” Again, many criticisms against the US, though Woz’s statement is a way to score a goal for America: “It perhaps hurts a little more to be told what you already know. The US has taken a beating for the past several years from much of the world, particularly Europeans. It’s called payback.”
Generation X describes the US the way he sees it…and suddenly we see that Italians are apparently in a good company: “All countries have a sense of malaise. The problem with America is that we’ve been so depressed for so long that we are professionals at numbing ourselves and bombing others. That’s a generalization of course, but even people my age numb themselves with the internet and whatever meds their parents put them on when they were kids. I think Italy has an upper hand with not being numbed. I’m sure people are struggling there and not sitting on their hands. There’s a struggle everywhere. It’ll eventually bubble up.”
Stephanie, who lived in Italy for 14 months after graduating, writes about her experience adding new and interesting hints to the debate: “Like it or not, if you speak their language, some Italian will eventually tell you what is wrong with your country. So for a population that knows everything, it’s probably a bit shocking to see the opposite coming back. Yes, we do have plenty of problems that the Italians don’t have, but we also have a culture of dialog (or at least we used to) in the fabric of our society. I’ve gotten lectures about “razzismo” from people who find out that my father grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, the same people who openly disparage “marocchini” (Dark-skinned North Africans) and “zingari” (gypsies). My response is yes, racism is still a huge issue in the States, but at least we acknowledge it and we’ve been talking about it. If Italy can take this in stride and say, goodness, this is the impression that we make on people, and not place the onus on one newspaper/journalist, perhaps it can be an effort towards growth.”

Marco, an Italian, intervenes too, replying to Ridagana’s words: “I also know many non-Italians who do not speak good English (or any other foreign language for that matter) and are very attached to the traditions and customs of their own country. The European Union is not one Country. It’s a Union of Countries, with many local cultures. That is the beauty of it. I do agree with Mr. Fisher’s article. But cannot agree with the stereotype of the Italian abroad who does not speak the language and only eats spaghetti. Statistics will tell Ridagana that a vast majority of Italians who live and work abroad are extremely well educated and indeed contribute greatly to the cultural life of their host country.”
MS gives his opinion as a tourist and suggests a rather brilliant solution to the problems of the Italian tourism industry: “Me and my wife went there once. It is beautiful country with great history. But true: They are slow, I would say even a bit disrespectful. Tourism brings them billions of dollars, but there’s no quality service. I’m happy somebody started talking about it on a bigger scale. They should let us Americans manage their country.” Andrew Arato is quick to respond: “I actually agree, Americans should worry about their own malaise, which is ruining more than just their own country.” Undoubtedly the Iraq issue is at the center of so many blogs debating this subject.

Val V. an Italian who has been living in America for over 20 years still has contacts with her family in Italy: “I visit often. I completely agree with Mr. Fisher’s article. These are old problems that refuse to go away. What Italy needs, for example, is the ‘can do’ attitude that some countries (the US for one) have toward new challenges; in Italy, unfortunately, that tends to be more of a ‘can’t do’ because those in power think they have more to gain by maintaining the status quo and those who would like to see and try new things are constantly stymied be the system.”

Andrea, 22, Italian and currently living in Italy but, as he says, “planning to leave soon, if things don’t change” completely agrees with Ian Fisher, too: “Sad but true! We consider Italy one of greatest nations of the world, we even act like that, but we are not: our economy is a mess (despite the general economic growth), our politicians tend to only preserve their privileges, forgetting that their job is to serve people and not being served by them, our school system is completely inadequate for the current time and for the ongoing challenges globalization is creating, our (dis)information system…NO COMMENT… and finally we (or at least the majority of us, those who care to see what is really going on here and not what our information system sells to us) are completely hopeless for their future. I also think that the reaction by Italians is understandable … I think we all love our country so much – despite all its faults –that sometimes it hurts when someone criticizes it and that someone is so damn right! Our anger reflects, and tries to hide, our powerlessness – as citizens – before such a scenario. And what about the reactions of our politicians and our information media?? Well, nothing unexpected … “Everything is fine”, “Italy’s good, and we have no problems” … the same old bunch of bullsh*** to keep the people quite and sell a fake sense of happiness.”

At the opposite end of the spectrum is the opinion of Eric Kuhn: “I have been living and working in Italy (Rome and Milan) for over five years, and been visiting the country for about the last 20 years. I am married to an Italian, and have an Italian-born daughter, with countless deep and substantial relationships with Italians colleagues and friends. My take on this, quite the contrary, is that beneath this surface impression the Italian national character remains one of joie de vivre, positive and uplifting in how they live their daily lives. They most certainly may bemoan the threat of cheap Chinese labor or the euro-dollar exchange rate, and will confess to legitimate concerns over the country’s competitive prospects, but have millennia under their belt of lean times and maintain, in my experience, a fundamental joy of life. And this is why we all love the Italians (and like to believe we have a little of that in us)!”

Valentino Salvato uses a comparison that can be made only by Italians: “I have read the article and I know it is a realistic picture of my beloved country at the moment. But I also know very well that my fellow Italians give their best in their worst moments, in the same way our national soccer team wins the World Cup every time they are under intense criticism. I believe Italy has scratched the bottom of the barrel in this last 15 years and now it’s going to rise again and in great style…Italian style!!! Wait and watch a new forthcoming ‘Renaissance’!!” A positive note amidst the dominating pessimism! Tiffany continues on this tone:  “Italians are alive! They acknowledge that they have some problems and they often take to the streets to protest or strike. They have a mafia, we have lobbyism, same difference! Ridagana does not like that Italians are closed-minded. How many Americans go see foreign films, speak a foreign language or for that matter, read any newspaper???? I have had wonderful discussions about American literature, culture etc. with Italians. Americans are not as open to foreign literature. In fact, we are reading less. Italy has undergone so many governments and yet it still functions and survives. Their highways are wonderful; their landmarks are preserved and not demolished to make condos. They still are the best dressed in Europe and eating is an art form in Italy. They all take winter and summer vacations and they eat out every weekend. They do not act as if there is a crisis. I like Italy the way it is! Businesses are family owned and they hate paying taxes. Who doesn’t? When Italy starts to become more like the US, I will stop going there.” These are words used by many other bloggers on various sites.

Suzanne also gives a positive comment: “I’ve been going to Italy for work for 30 years, lived there for several years earlier in this century, and I want to affirm several points about Italian culture. *Especially* important is the high level of political, cultural, intellectual self-awareness, cutting across class lines thanks to a well-developed left and a still-strong labor movement. Frankly, I found Fisher’s article facile, superficial, and foolishly ignorant about the US’ historical role in causing and sustaining the problems that afflict Italy’s political class. Worse, it seemed to recycle the themes by which Italian culture was maligned as backward, ignorant, dangerous, and hopelessly inefficient, in the 60s and 70s – back before espresso, Armani, and great scarves became fashionable with yuppies. But that’s just middle-aged me, a woman who loved Italy back in the day, and still does.”

Henry makes an observation that should, at last, guide the debate in a new direction: “The article is about Italy. It is not a comparison of Italy to the US or any other country. It does not state that Italy is the only country with ‘issues’. So, to all of you who say “the US has problems too” or “we should solve our own problems”, you miss the point of the article entirely, which is to comment on Italian malaise, not whether it is better/worse/whatever than US sentiments. Get it?” Probably not, because Dea brings the conversation back to the Italy/US comparison: “I live in Southern Italy and I agree 100% with Ian Fisher, actually my opinions are stronger and quite frankly more negative. My experience here has not been a good one, as an African-American woman I find it really hard to live here day to day. The comments, the innuendos, the stares, the insults, not a day goes by that I have not had an uncomfortable moment so I limit myself to work and home…. I worked here on a US government contract. My contract is over at year-end, and I am coming home. Italy, nice place to visit for some, awful place to live in for me.” again comes the issue of racism by Italians.

Clifford Decker instead sees “the politicos in Italy bend, bow, scrape and collude with the United States. Look at Vicenza, with the hordes of Americans about to descend and create yet another Caserma Ederle, at Del Molina, military complex – which the people of Vicenza do not want – that the politicos sanctioned. So – he asks – why attack the people with negativity? Italian citizens have rightly seen the hegemonic, Empire building designs of gwb [George W. Bush] and company, using Italy as a springboard (colony?) That is plain to see. I smell Karl Rove. I lived – and traveled widely and often – in Italy for three years and observed none of what Fisher wrote. I knew and saw hard-working, courteous, friendly, laughing, and outgoing men and women both in private and in business relationships. I never saw a depressed Italian in day-to-day living, let alone a national malaise. Besides that – Clifford ends – they eat real food, drink real wine, and have a real culture and education. Why an average American would choose to live here after the Nixon, Regan, Bush, Bush/Cheney cabals strains credulity.”

Henry notices something interesting regarding the bloggers on the NYT site: “Among the posters here, those that are ITALIANS living in America agree with the article. Those that are AMERICANS living in Italy (or took a tromp there) are single-mindedly focused on criticizing America, rather than the subject of the article. Remember, the article is about Italy, NOT America, not Italy v. America. Just ITALY!”
The comments to Ian Fisher’s article began being posted December and are still continuing: Undoubtedly a sign of great interest in the issues regarding Italy. One of the last comments was posted on January 6 by Andrea D., who starts with the article and ends with the venting of a really exasperated Italian: “Ian Fisher’s article was right on target! I’m Italian and live and work in Rome; I’ve also lived abroad and travel frequently for business around Europe and to North America. Like many other Italians that are seasoned travelers, I can see and feel the difference between Italy and the other countries, where cities are clean, and the public services work and Customer Service exists! The Italians that were mad about the article just confirmed that ‘Truth Hurts’. As I’m writing, one example of how poor or how uncivilized we’ve become, is the current ‘garbage dump issue in Naples’ – the city is in a major crisis since its Leaders don’t know what to do and how to resolve the city’s garbage pick-up and destruction of it…. Lebanon and Baghdad are in better shape. A real revolution is needed here!”